Tuesday, April 15, 2008

Consult, stupid!

As I was having my quiet time this morning - which has been increasingly not quiet with the addition of early-rising kids - I ran across this verse:

Joshua 9:14 - So the Israelites examined their food, but they did not consult the Lord. (NLT)

The context of the verse is a story of the Israelites being told by God to essentially rid the land of its inhabitants. But Joshua and the Israelites, instead of following that directive, made a treaty with a deceptive group of people who were playing themselves off as a hurting nation. In fact, the nation was not hurting, but instead were afraid of what Israel would do to them. When Joshua and the people found out that they had been lied to, they were true to their word and instead of destroying the people - like God told them to - they made them servants. They were basically deceived into not following God's explicit instructions.

It made me ask the question: How often do I not consult the Lord? Do I consult the Lord as much as I should with:

My marriage

My kids

My job

My career path

My finances

The use of my spare time

My temptations

My friendships

My lack of discipline is basically all areas?

Yeah, probably not (read: DEFINITELY NOT!). It smacked me across the face in the wee hours of the morning. My wife has desired for us to pray more as a couple, but even though she keeps asking, I don't consult the Lord. I work to plan out our youth calendar and I don't consult the Lord. Even this morning I thought, "Man, I really need to set aside the first few minutes of every day at work to consult the Lord." hen when I got to work, what did I do? Flipped on the computer and started checking e-mail. AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!! Why is it so difficult?!? It shouldn't be. But maybe the depth of my relationship with the Lord is not where it needs to be so that my first thought is, "Consult the Lord." Actually, not maybe, but definitely. Lord, remind me that you are there for me to consult.


DGH said...


Christ have mercy
LORD have mercy
Christ have mercy.

Edward said...

Amen. I think we are all guilty of this to some degree. I have a tendency to do the same thing. I resign to consult with the Lord the first thing and sometimes I can even get to 4 days before "something more important/urgent" comes along. I have been thinking that an accountability partner would help. Keep on trying and God bless.

Anonymous said...

Where is your Christianity? Where is your love of the teaching of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus?

God ordered the destruction of the people Israel had conquered and you sniff that off?

Mike, wake up and sniff the Christianity for Christ's sake.

Fitz said...

My dear Anonymous (who I don't think is so anonymous, BTW), thank you for your criticism of my Christianity. I assume that yours is far superior to mine based upon the condescending nature of what you wrote. My Christianity is based not only on Christ, but also that He is the same God of the Old AND New Testaments. You can't throw one out and keep the other. They go together. And the destruction of the enemies of Israel wasn't simply based upon God wanting to snuff them out. If you would read history, you would find that these nations were involved not only in idol worship, but idol worship that included such things as human (child) sacrifices. God is a patient God, but after a while He disciplines. You can't take love without justice. The love of a child punishes/disciplines the child, does it not? Or does it simply let the child live however the heck it wants? That's not love at all. That's indifference, which is the opposite of love...

Anonymous said...

You love Jesus, no doubt about that.

Then accept the teaching of our Lord and Master.

He has obviated the whole Old Testament. He has said over and over that the Old Testament is basically bunk.

The God of the Old Testament is a hateful, violent, ugly idol worshipped by the Jews. Our Lord has replaced that idol with the true God, a God of love.

Read what Jesus has said, please!

Anonymous said...

You are so right, anonymous, whoever you are.

The Old Testament is, as you said, bunk.

Read Levitus if you want a good laugh.

And two contradictory creation stories to boot.

I agree with you. Love Jesus and throw the Old Testament into the garbage where it belongs with the Koran.

Fitz said...

Anonymous, you wrote, "Read what Jesus has said, please!"

Hmmm, how about this, then?

Matthew 5:17-20 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Doesn't sound to me like He was throwing away the Old Testament at all...

And BTW, I have read and do read what Jesus has said on a pretty regular basis for my own good as well as for my job. How about you? Do you read what He has said on a regular basis? Or are you simply using this blog as a forum to express your own frustrations with church or Christianity or some people that are supposed to represent Christianity? Just curious...

Anonymous said...

My Lord and Savior, Jesus, told us explicitly that the Old Testament was bunk. Hey, read the Sermon on the Mount and the Eight Beatitudes for Christ’s sake.

The ten commandments in the Old Testament are certainly not bunk, but even pagan Romans who worshipped Zeus believed in them. They are common sense, the way good, normal people live. Even pagans did not steal or dishonor their parents.

I love Jesus. I have no frustrations about modern Christianity. Yes, there are homosexual, drug user pastors of mega-churches. Yes, there are hate mongers like Hagee and Limbaugh who parade as Christians. But my Lord and Savior dealt with scum like that when He walked among us.

You quoted the fake God of the Old Testament as saying kill all the people the Jews had conquered. Then you said they were wrong in not obeying this horrid wish. Is this nuts? And you say: well, they were into offering up children to idols so they should all be killed. Michael, do you have a grasp of what Jesus was trying to teach us?

Where is the Christ in you? Is that what Jesus would do? Come on.

Face the reality. As I said, read Leviticus and then look up and say: the Old Testament is crap.
It’s trash, garbage, spew, balderdash, vomit, poop.

Jesus has nothing to do with the hateful, heinous, manevolent God the Jews worshipped in the Old Testament.

Read Luke 16:16 and Mathew 5, 17-20

Read the Sermon on the Mount.

Then tell me about the Old Testament as being a part of Christianity. It's not. It's Jewish

When my Lord and my God came to our earth, He threw the old testament out of the window.

I’ve never met you Michael, but I think you have a good heart. With that heart, love Jesus and his teachings and consider the Old Testament nothing more than pure horse dung.

Fitz said...

Are you being serious, or just trying to mess with me? Really. Because the Jesus you speak of was a Jew (one of those idol worshippers you refer to) and spoke quote reverently of the God of the Old Testament. To try and separate the true, historical Jesus from the true, historical Old Testament is the thing that is balderdash. I would suggest you really read the Scriptures - particularly the passages dealing with Jesus (all of them, not just the ones you pick out of context in an attempt to make your argument) as well as commentary dealing with them before you start proclaiming that Jesus rules and the rest is hogwash.

BTW, you pointed out Luke 16:16. Have you read Luke 16:17, or just v. 16? You took v. 16 completely out of its context because you think it helped you in your argument. This is called eisogesis, and is not considered an accurate way of interpreting Scripture. But if you continue reading the passage in context, you will find that v. 17 (Jesus speaking) supports that the Law (Old Testament) still continues to be relevant and true even in the time of Jesus. He doesn't call it bunk or horse dung, contrary to your viewpoint.

Anonymous said...

I have two questions.

Question #1: Which creationist story in Genesis do you believe in? In Genesis 1, plants and animals are created before people and on the sixth day, God creates man and women at the same time. In Genesis 2, a man is created on the second day, then the plants and animals and then a woman

Question #2: Which God in the Bible do you believe in? The Old Testament idol who, in Joshua, orders the merciless destruction of a "deceptive" people and is angry when the Jews don't do it. A God who says kill your children if they sass you. A vindictive, angry, violent God. Or do you believe in the God of the New Testament who says: Blessed are the merciful for they shall have mercy and who says love one another as I love you.

Anonymous said...

Hey Fitz, how come you haven't responded to the above post? Are you afraid of exploring your Christianity?

Fitz said...

Nope, I just have two small children and just got back from a mission trip to Chicago. I haven't exactly had the time and computer access. Besides, I'm still waiting for your answers from my questions. Or are you simply content to throw out challenges without having to answer to challenges to your comments and belief systems?

I have explored my Christianity for 26 years now and have found it to be the most true belief system out there. And by using the word 'your' are you implying that you subscribe to some form of Christianity? Because if you throw out the Old Testament, you really can't consider yourself a Christian at all. Jesus must be believed and accepted in context, not taken out of context at your whim.

I'll work on my responses to your questions hopefully later this week. But since I'm spending time with family, it may not happen. This will give you time to answer my questions... :-)

Anonymous said...

Welcome back!

I’ve read your blog bio and I know that you have a lot more important (and many) things to do besides prattle on your blog.

Please keep in mind that our dialogue is not meant to be adversarial in any way. We both are deeply committed to Jesus and all that He means to us and humankind. I just happened to be shocked out of my socks when I heard you say (blog) that you received some personal spiritual insights from a bloodthirsty, definitely non-Christian passage in Joshua. When I read what you said about putting a “deceptive” people to the sword, I couldn’t believe it. Huh? Is he for real?

You asked me to answer your questions: I am most serious in what I am blogging you; I am in no way trying to mess with you. I have studied and continue to study Mark (the first Gospel), Matthew and Luke, and John. I do not read scripture enough, certainly not as frequently as you do. But Jesus plays the central role in my life and I take Him and His teaching most seriously.

I asked you two questions which you are mulling over in the back of your mind.

So as to make things a bit easier for both of us, let me tell you what my answers are to those two questions. The questions weren’t posed as a game of some sort or to pressure you in any way.

As a Christian who has turned his life over to our Savior, Jesus Christ, I have no problem whatsoever with the fact that there are two distinct creation stories in Genesis. Both are heartfelt poems. I consider the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) as being, at its best, a fantastic allegory, a wonderful metaphor, a source of inspiration, a beautiful peon to man’s love of God. And at its worst, pure crap.

For example, Noah and his ark for me and my family is a most wondrous parable about the power of faith. But to take it literally--come on! We take great spiritual messages from Noah and his ark, but please with the historical factuality of it. Maybe Noah saved his family and some animals in an area, but a world-wide flood and every species of animal and plant on earth? Please, don’t insult the intelligence that God gave me and wants me to use in the pursuit of His truth.

Joshua had the sun stand still for a day, eh? Of course, back then, folks believed the sun revolved around the earth. But Fitz, we know different these days. Joshua’s idea behind the fable reverberates with spiritual truth; but Joshua’s idea of putting to the sword a conquered people smells like the kind of thought a primitive, idol worshipping people would espouse.

And some of the old guys in the Hebrew Bible lived 600, 900 years. Uh-huh.

I have no problem at all with the hyperbole and mythology of the Hebrew Bible. None at all. Okay, there was no Egyptian enslavement of Israel, okay, so what? Egypt was a symbol of mammon. I can live with that. The guys who wrote the Hebrew Bible never meant what they said to be taken as history or literally--good God, I sure hope they didn’t!

But I will not accept the Hebrew Bible’s image of God. He is a dark, borderline evil force that destroys every nation that is not Jewish. No sir, that I will not accept. This is idolatry. This is a true sin.

My Lord, my God, my Savior Jesus has made the Hebrew Bible’s underlying message obsolete. Not “the law” that is in the Hebrew Bible, not the commandments (excluding Leviticus, of course), not the reverence for the one Supreme Being. But just about everything else in the Hebrew Bible is dubious.

We know from true historical records that Jesus and St. Paul existed. Nothing in the Hebrew Bible has any historical roots. Nothing. The Hebrew Bible is a sometimes beautiful fable fabricated by Jewish men about a thousand years before Jesus came to earth.

Obviously you know the answer to the second question I asked you: which God do I worship, the God of love--Jesus--or the malevolent idol worshipped in the Hebrew Bible.

I love Jesus with my whole heart and my soul. He has made the Hebrew Bible obsolete. Of course he has not made “the law”, the 10 commandments, the prayers/poems in the Psalms, the beautiful fables like David and Goliath obsolete. He has made the bloodthirsty crap of Joshua and many others not only obsolete, but dead wrong.

Jesus refutes the eye for an eye philosophy of the Hebrew Bible. The Good Samaritan parable speaks volumes on the twisted-ness of the Hebrew Bible. A scholar could go on and on about the many ways Jesus, though following “the law”, totally replaces its basic tenets with the new, superior law of Christianity. Jesus would not say: “I told you to kill those people and you showed them mercy and therefore I will punish you.” Nope, He wouldn’t.

You said something vague about “Jesus must be believed and accepted in context.” ( ? ) All I can say is I believe with my whole being in Jesus and His teaching in the context of the world, the reality I am living in today, right now. I don’t see how this belief has anything whatsoever to do with the holy book of a tribe of desert nomads, written a thousand years or so before our Lord walked among us. This is the context of Christ I believe in, Fitz.

ChristyStokes said...

This is exactly what i have been struggling with lately. i keep WANTING to make more time, but i never do...

Anonymous said...

I have never met any of you folks.
I live with my folks in Tulsa.
This is my first time on this obscure blog. Hi Michael!

I am kinda house-bound because of a war injury to my legs. I spend part of my time exploring Christian blogs to get a feel for what is going on in the true Christian spirit of our country.

Hey, without Jesus, where will we be?

I take my scripture seriously, second only to Jesus. My Lord Jesus is first, and all the rest, including the Bible is second.

Jesus rules. The Bible supports Him. But Jesus rules. When you give your life over to Him, everything, including the Bible, pales.

I cannot overlook the parable Jesus told us about the master who gave his servants three amounts of money (talents). Matthew 25, verses 14-30

He left three servants with talents and came back later. The first and second doubled his money and he was pleased. The third buried the money and gave it back just as it was and the master was not pleased.

I believe that our Lord Jesus has given all of us “talents” and we are to use them in getting to know Him and His teachings greater.

Those who worship the Bible, instead of worshipping His message and teachings, are those who have buried the talent Jesus has given them. Hey, Jesus rules, not the Bible. I worship Jesus, not the Bible.

We all have been given a “talent” namely our intellect full of power. It is our duty from Jesus to use that talent to explore His message. We have a "talent", namely our brain and our reasoning powers to find Him in His truest sense. I cannot listen to a TV preacher who twists Jesus's message to his own ends without realizing that I have been given by Him a "talent" to weed out the nonsense from His truth.

Jesus wants us to use our intellect! That is the "talent" He has given us!

If we slavishely follow only the Bible, which is full of contradictions and kind of wrong stuff, we are burying our talent, our ability to truly and fully explore His message to us.

Whoever you guys are, I can only say: give yourself up to Jesus, turn your life over to Him. All the rest will fall in place.

Anonymous said...

I love Jesus, that I know!

That's because the Bible tells me so.

Give yourself up to the Lord, and life is simple!

Jesus rules!

Anonymous said...

I love Noah's Ark. 16,000 animals and according to the Hebrew Bible, 8 (eight) people to take care of them.


While they bob around in the sea.

Do the math. And if that doesn't do it for you, watch another Disney animation movie.

My Jesus is not a Disney Jesus.
He is my true God.

What Jesus has told me is holy
stuff and not the crap that Disney
portrays as Jesus' teachings.

If you believe in the Hebrew Bible, look up Jeremiah chapter 10,
verses 3 to five in which we are told that Christmas trees are an abomination.

I surely hope you do not put up a Christmas tree in your home since you are a youth pastor.

Christmas trees are an insult to God, says the Hebrew Bible.

Easting lobster is an insult to God, say the Hebrew Bible.

Mr. Fitz, take the Hebrew Bible and throw it where it belongs, in the garbage with the Koran and Morman bible and Scientology.

Anonymous said...

He's got you Mr. Fitz. You're in a corner and can't get out. Checkmate. Game over.

Get with Jesus and everything will be okay.

Anonymous said...

Dr. Fitzgerald:

When the Jewish Bible was written, and when the New Testament was written, people believed the earth was flat and the sun revolved around the earth.

Now that we have telescopes, we can see with our own eyes that the universe is trillions of billons of light years larger than what they thought back then when they were camel jockeys worshipping an evil idol.

Certainly there will be somewhere out there a planet similar to ours that can sustain life.

Do your surmise that perhaps God will put an Adam and Eve on one of those planets and play out once again what has happened on our planet Earth? Or do you think that in this incredibly vast universe, we are the only planet?

Do you really think that the only planet with the love of Jesus implanted with us is ours?

The point I am trying to make is that Jesus, His teaching, His love for us is so, SO much bigger than what we think.

I agree with anonymous many posts ago that to get spiritual truths from the Hebrew Bible is like getting spiritual truths from a 1930's Betty Crocker cookbook.

Listen to Jesus! Don't put new wine in old wineskins.

Joshua sucks.

Fitz said...

Wow! Leave for a couple of weeks and my blog blows up. I haven't had this many visitors and commentors since, well, never. Apparently there are many of you that are looking for blogs like mine to take aim at for the faith described therein without having to name yourself. It's easy to lob grenades when you keep yourself anonymous; it's much more gratifying to have a conversation between two people. Maybe all of you 'anonymous' commentors - assuming there are more than one - could identify yourselves so we could have a real conversation. Just a thought.

There seems to be a common thread running throughout the criticisms of this post: a dismissal of my belief in the Old Testament as a valid section of the Word of God. Y'all (although I'm originally from Ohio, I picked up 'y'all' from my days in Kentucky) seem to want to take Jesus out of his historical context and follow Him alone. While I agree that Jesus in the centerpiece of the Christian faith, he is but one person of the Trinity, which also includes God the Father - that awful God y'all talked about - and the Holy Spirit. For you (I'm going to revert back to the collective 'you' here) to say 'follow Jesus, but the Old Testament is crap' is like saying 'I like that George Washington guy, but that whole Revolutionary War, I'm not buying it.' You can't take George out of his context, just like you can't take Jesus out of his. Jesus was a Jew (idol-worshipper, according to one of you). It's inarguable; he was. So if the Old Testament is crap and the Jews were just idol-worshippers, why follow Jesus? He was one of them! Not only that, but he referred to that "hateful, violent, ugly idol" God of the OT as 'Daddy.' (Mark 14:36 - Abba translates as 'Daddy') Plus, if you want to follow Jesus, you should examine what he said and take those words into consideration, right? Jesus, when tempted in the desert by the devil, used Scripture (OT, of course) to refute him three times. As I mentioned above, Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the Law or Prophets, but to fulfill them. This does not simply include the Ten Commandments, but the Law consists of the first five books of the OT (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy) and the Prophets are too many to list here. Not only that, but Jesus quoted extensively from the OT - all sections of it: the Law, the Prophets, the Writings. He apparently saw great value in the OT. He never once "told us explicitly that the Old Testament was bunk." And another thing that makes the OT so cool is all of the prophecies that point forward to Jesus. Writings that were written thousands of years before his birth, foretelling the coming Messiah, he fulfilled. Seriously, you can't tell me that isn't cool! Stuff he had no control over - where he was born, how he would die, how they wouldn't break his bones on the cross - he still fulfilled. The OT points forward to Jesus, the Messiah. The NT points back to Him. You can't simply pluck him out of his context and say, "I like him, but I don't like the stuff that surrounds him." Well, I guess you can because there are many of you that are. And to pluck him out of his context to throw the OT away is the throw away thousands of years of scholarship that connect him to the OT. I'm not smart enough to do that, and I would assume the average person that is out there reading blogs - especially this one - is not either.

Soren Kierkegaard once said “People try to persuade us that objections against Christianity spring from doubt. But the objections against Christianity spring from insubordination, the dislike of obedience, rebellion against authority.” Is that really what is at stake here? Perhaps your objections against historical Christianity is simply your not wanting to submit to what the Bible (which I do not worship, BTW, as was hinted at by one of the commentors here) has to say and commands. It's easy to make up your own religion based upon what you want to hear and want to follow, but is that the 'religion' that God really instituted? No. That is making yourself your God, not Jesus. So who is your God, Jesus or you?

BTW, I did not feel like I was in a corner or checkmated. I have just been gone a lot this summer on mission trips and family trips. Keep bringing the objections. I can pretty much guarantee that I won't feel intimidated by them because I know the truth is on my side.

One other BTW: I am not a 'Dr.' I just have a Masters of Divinity. And the name is Fitzpatrick, not Fitzgerald. If you're going to come on my blog to rip me, at least get my name right.

I look forward to more grenades lobbed my way. Hopefully you will attach names this time...

Anonymous said...

I cannot sign my sign because it is impossible on your website to identify yourself. For the record, my name is Frank DeWitt. But I am not the only “anonymous” who has responded to your unbelievable upholding of murderous quotes from the Jewish Bible. Golly, that was something else for you to say--a Christian saying what you said about Joshua frightened the tar out of me. Mr. Fitz, are you a Christian or what!? And you are a youth pastor, for Christ’s sake!!!!
Next thing you know, you will be saying that Jerusalem belongs to the Jewish people because the Bible says so. My God, are you a Zionist propaganda perpetrator. The Jewish Bible is hogwash and if you say it says Jerusalem belongs to them because of the crap written in it, Jesus Christ, we are in big trouble with our Christian brain trust.

I don’t know about the other anonymous writers, but I certainly would never take my Lord, God and Savior out of his “historical context.” He most certainly was Jewish. But when He came on earth to walk among us, He made the Old Testament obsolete, kaput, crap--Jewish trash.

How can you take God, Jesus, out of His context? He is the whole context. As soon as Jesus came to us, He made all the crap in the Old Testament into a fable at best. That simple. He is the way, the truth and the life. The camel jockey idol worshipping book is trash. That simple. There is no other “context.”

If you take the Trinity concept as literal as you do, then we are in a world of hurts since God The Father is a most evil idol. Mr. Fitz, take Christ seriously, please. Be born again to Him and forget all the other poop.

Just use for a moment your looking up from reading the Joshua BS and saying: yes, we have to kill if God wants us to. That is Jewish Bible balderdash if you believe in our Lord and Master Jesus. Next thing you know you will be saying: we should carpet bomb Egypt and broaden Israel’s domain. Then lets mow down all the people in the next bordering countries. You have been camel jockeyed, my pastor. Next thing you know, you will want to establish in Missouri an altar to sacrifice lambs on in honor of your ancient idol. I don’t agree, not at all. We are Christians, not Jews--don’t forget that.

Down with lobsters. No more Christmas trees. Kill sassing kids!

Most certainly our Lord was a Jew. But He left that idol worship far, far behind Him. That's why He came to earth.

Dr. Fitz, what holy book was Jesus going to refer to if He did not have the Hebrew Bible? How was He going to enlighten us all if He did not have that book to refer to? But He made it perfectly clear that all of that, and I mean all of that, was now irrelevant.

The prophecies of His coming and how Jesus fulfilled them was written in hundreds of years after He was among us.

Hey, where was Jesus born? Look carefully into this and you will get a brain aneurism. Two of the four evangelists write about His virgin birth and two others say not a word, not a word, about it. You would think this would be kind of important, wouldn’t you? But think about it. Two mention not one word about it. Read carefully, Professor Fitz the first four parts of the four Evangelists and wow, they don’t agree at all.

There is no scholarship that connects our Lord to the Old Testament. None.

I would never make up my own religion. I am not Rush Limaugh. I listen to Jesus. That simple. And He has nothing to do with the Old Testament. Zero.

Jews do not listen to the New Testament. I do not listen to the Old. That black and white simple.

I absolutely believe in historical Christianity and it starts with the New Testament, throwing out the Hebrew bible as crap. There was no Passover as the Jewish nation was never enslaved. And that is just the beginning.

Who is your God, Mr. Fitz: Jesus or the evil one in the Old Testament?

And by the way, which Genesis creation story do you espouse? You never did answer that question.This will be interesting.

If you love Jesus as much as I do, then never feel intimated because we both know that the truth is on our side.

Anonymous said...

I don't know where you Missouri guys are coming from, but there is no Trinity concept, I think, in the Old Testament. Where did that idea come from? Was that a Falwell fabrication?

Anonymous said...

Stop it guys. Love Jesus and His teachings. That's all there's to it.

But I have to agree: throw the Hebrew bible into the garbage can.

If you can believe in Sannie Claus, then okay, believe in Genesis.

And I too find it impossible to sign in on this blog.

Anonymous said...

Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy--all Jewish drivel.

The Jews never were enslaved by Egypt. Read your history book for
Christ's sake.

And how dare you say "Jesus is but one part of the Trinity."

Are you a Christian or a Jew posing as a Christian?

Shame on you.

Mr.Fitz, get with scripture, the real, historically proven scripture not the vomit idol worshippers put out before He came to us.

Anonymous said...

Why don't you guys tone down the rhetoric.

Give yourself up to Jesus.

Tell Joshua to gnaw on a camel turd because he most certainly wasn't a Christian.

Come on--there is no Christianity in the Hebrew Bible. None.

Listen to our Lord and put the Jewish Bible where it belongs, namely open and right next to the toilet where it can be put to real use.

And stop with the ranting.

Love Jesus!

Anonymous said...

Historians have made various attempts to determine when the events described in Exodus took place.

A segment of modern archaeologists claim that there is no historical background to the Exodus legend. According to Prof. Ze'ev Herzog, Director of the Institute of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University,

“ This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. … the God of Israel, Jehovah, had a female consort [Asherah, and] the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai. Most of those who are engaged in scientific work in the interlocking spheres of the Bible, archaeology and the history of the Jewish people—and who once went into the field looking for proof to corroborate the Bible story—now agree that the historic events relating to the stages of the Jewish people's emergence are radically different from what that story tells. … The many Egyptian documents that we have make no mention of the Israelites' presence in Egypt and are also silent about the events of the Exodus. … Generations of researchers tried to locate Mount Sinai and the stations of the tribes in the desert. Despite these intensive efforts, not even one site has been found that can match the biblical account. … Repeated excavations by various expeditions at Jericho and Ai, the two cities whose conquest is described in the greatest detail in the Book of Joshua, have proved very disappointing. Despite the excavators' efforts, it emerged … there were no cities in either tell … Biblical scholars suggested a quarter of a century ago that the conquest stories be viewed [as] legends and no more. But as more and more sites were uncovered and it emerged [that] there is no factual basis for the biblical story about the conquest by Israelite tribes in a military campaign led by Joshua. … The archaeological findings blatantly contradict the biblical picture [of Canaan.] … The archaeology of the Land of Israel is completing a process that amounts to a scientific revolution in its field. … Israeli society … is not [ready to adopt] the archaeological facts that shatter the biblical myth.[18]

Dr. Fitz, grow up and smell the coffee. The Hebrew bible was written by Billy Crystal.

Hey, tell you what, we get this small guy with a sling shot and he kills this Goliath kind of guy. Whadda you think?

I got one better. This guy gets a boat and puts sixteen thousand animals on it and they survive a flood that kills everyone on earth
except his 8 people!

I like it! I like it!

Do you think people will believe this crap?

Sure they will.

How about this one: Joshua stops the sun for a day!

Har, har! Only people in Missouri will believe that one.

Anonymous said...

I think I agree with somebody in this getting out of control blog.

The Jews do not believe in Jesus. Not one bit.

And I do not believe in the evil God they worship. Not one bit.

Anonymous said...

So this guy goes into a Knoxville Unitarian church, it was on the web today, and while the church is watching a children's production of "Annie" takes out a shotgun and starts shooting people because of their liberal Christian views. I mean, these people want to love everyone and, of course, this guy feels that only people who believe as he does deserve God's love.

And all the time he is yelling: Joshua! Joshua!

Scares me, Dr. Fitz. Shows you what the Hebrew Bible will do to you if you actually take it seriously.

This is what Christ's message is coming to. Kill those who don't believe what you believe. Kill, kill, kill in the name of Jesus.

They are now going to rewrite Our Lord and Master'S dying words on the cross from "Forgive them for they do not what they do" to "Kill them all. Kill them and their kids."


Fitz said...

I don't have time to address your rants this evening. Perhaps this weekend I will have some spare time. But a couple of questions for all of you (if there are more than one of you - only one of you identified yourself, and I doubt that is your real name) anonymous posters:

1. Why are you turning to insults? "Only people in Missouri will believe that one." I'm not originally from Missouri, but how insulting! What enlightened state are you from, if you are so much smarter than Missourians?

2. Why would you twist the facts of a current tragedy to make light of a point you are trying to make here? To say that the shooter in Knoxville was shouting Joshua's name is incredibly insensitive to the people involved there. Pretty shallow stuff.

3. If there are more than one of you, where did you all come from? Suddenly I have several anonymous readers and posters coming out of the woodwork to challenge my beliefs?? Yeah, I'll bet there are more than one of you that just happened across this blog (sarcasm). Or maybe you are just one poster posing as several. Much more likely.

And once again, I'm not sure why you keep referring to me as Dr. Fitz. Is that supposed to be some kind of backhanded insult? Or do you sincerely keep forgetting that I am not a doctor?

Well, until next time...

Anonymous said...

Which creationist story do you believe in?

Simple enough question, eh?

Fitz said...

Yes. Simple enough answer, too. Both. One is simply a straightforward chronological account; the other is focused on the man. If you need me to spell that out more, you'll have to wait until this weekend. And there is no discrepancy between the order of plants and mankind. Genesis 2:7 talks about man being formed from the dust of the ground. Genesis 2:8 says that "the LORD God HAD planted a garden in the east," suggesting that it had already taken place when He made the man. Plus, if you want to still take the view that in chapter 2 the plants came after the man, the 'plants' referred to here is a different word in Hebrew than in chapter 1; the word here suggests plants that require cultivation by the man. Plants were still here prior to man, but there were others that required the man work to sow and reap. So yeah, I believe both of them. They don't contradict each other. I'm sure you'll come up with more questions because I don't really think you want the answers. I think you just showed up out of nowhere to simply challenge me because you have a problem with Christianity. Maybe you want to have a real dialogue, but since you are bringing up matters that weren't addressed in this blog post at all, I think you came in with an agenda. True?

Anonymous said...

Yes, I have an agenda. It's called Jesus Christ.

When I read about a leader of Christians--you, sir--agreeing with the destruction of a conquered people because "God ordered it," and not only not being reviled by Joshua but actually getting a spiritual uplifting by this heinous idea, I get scared. Very scared. Ahd I have decided to raise my voice.

The loud and clear messages Jesus Christ gave us are being twisted out of shape by contemporary Christians. Love one another as I love you has become: love those who believe in what you believe and literally blast into smithereens those who don't agree.

Yes, I have an agenda. My agenda is the word of Jesus Christ.

If you were just a crazy blogger, I would ignore your blindness. But the idea of the blind leading the blind in the practice of Christianity really, really gets under my skin.

Anonymous said...

I have a tip for you, youth pastor Fitzpatrick.

Get your Christian teaching, what you teach to those entrusted to your spiritual care, from the words of Jesus and the ideas in the New Testament.

You are not a Jew, I don't think. So other than some of the legends and fables in the Hebrew Bible, beautiful stuff that has survived for centuries, stay away from that ridiculous book when teaching Christian children. Teach them the love and compassion of Jesus and Christianity and not the hate of the Hebrew Bible.

Teach love and tolerance the way our Lord loved, truly loved, harlots, Samaritans, lepers, poor fishermen, children, adulterous women, the down-trodden, even a Roman Centurion. Do not teach putting a nation to the sword as the evil book of Joshua says several times.

Please read the New Testament like you mean it. Listen to what Jesus is telling us for Christ's sake!

Come on, you are a Christian, not a Jewish person!

Jewish people, based on their faith, believe in vengeance, an eye for an eye, killing in the name of their idol god, abhorring lobster, seizing Jerusalem, that kind of stuff. Well, they are Jews.

You are a Christian! You are so different from that.

Don't pick and choose what you believe from the Hebrew bible. Discard it as our Lord and Master did and accept Jesus!

I don't think this is such a radical thought, only a thought from a person who loves Christ, our Lord, Saviour and Master.

Fitz said...

Excellent twisting of my words. Nowhere did I write, nor do I believe, that we have license to destroy anyone that believes differently than we do. This passage is not about that. Instead, it is about God finally punishing a people whom He had been very patient with. Wayne Jackson of the Christian Courier puts it better than I could, so I will let him:

"The Destruction of the Canaanites

When the Israelites entered Canaan, they were to utterly destroy those heathen cities, including the women and children (Num. 21:2,3; Josh. 6:21). To many, this seems excessively cruel. It is hard to take. Perhaps, though, the following factors will help to focus the matter with a clearer perspective.

1. The destruction of the pagan tribes of Canaan must be viewed in light of their utter abandonment of moral restraint. They practiced child sacrifice, sodomy, religious prostitution, etc. They became unfit to live. (For further discussion of this matter, see my book, {glossSub (“Courier Publications”,”Biblical Studies in the Light of Archaeology”)}, pp. 57f).
2. Their punishment had not been rendered impetuously. Jehovah had been patient with them for centuries; finally, however, their cup of iniquity ran over (Gen. 15:16), and the time for judgment came.
3. This type of destruction was implemented on a rather limited basis—principally, upon the tribes within Palestine. This was in view of the fact that God chose Canaan as the place where the Hebrew nation was to be cultivated. And this, of course, related to the coming of the Messiah, the Savior of the world. (For a discussion of why this particular territory was selected, see my book, {glossSub (“Courier Publications”,”Background Bible Study”)}, p. 1.) It was an example of moral surgery for the ultimate benefit of all mankind.
4. It is still true, though, that these Old Testament narratives illustrate the fact that innocent people frequently have to suffer the consequences of evil acts which others perpetrate, due to the kind of world in which we live. This should motivate us to desire a better state wherein wickedness does not exist.

Yes, these examples of divine justice are hard sayings, but not beyond our ability to appreciate. Certainly they should not present a faith problem."

This love that you speak of, the one that Jesus preaches, does it allow for punishment of sin? Or do we simply overlook it because that would be a more 'loving' approach? As stated earlier, that's not love. That's indifference.

And if Jesus is so loving (which I certainly believe that He is, and would never condone what this idol-God commanded in the OT, what do you do with Matthew 13:41-42: "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."? Hmmm, sounds pretty awful...

Fitz said...

Again, Jesus NEVER discarded the OT. Get your facts straight before ranting...

Anonymous said...

Oh my. Oh my.

You are not a Christian.

You are actually going into the Hebrew bible to justify killing.

Read what you said above.

God knew that those people were reprobates and had to be utterly killed.

Oh my. You are not a Christian at all. Oh my.

I am saddened.

Who are we to tell who is evil? You are reading the Hebrew bible which describes them as very evil.

But when you, Christian leader, bring that kind of thinking into the church and lead young people with it, oh my.

Knoxville Tennessee happening once again.

Anonymous said...

I am not the other guy, but one who prowls these "Christian" blogs.

Mr. Mike, you are not a Christian.

"When the Israilites entered the city of Canaan, they were to utterly destroy the inhabitants."
Read the scripture more--kill all the men, women, chldren, pets and livestock.

This is ancient Jewish talk and how can it becoming from your mouth, a Christian leader.

Shame on you. Christ weeps.

Anonymous said...

Oh God in heaven, you are not a Christian.

I will stop writing to you as you still have not seen the message of our Lord.

You quote crap like this:
1. The destruction of the pagan tribes of Canaan must be viewed in light of their utter abandonment of moral restraint. They practiced child sacrifice, sodomy, religious prostitution, etc. They became unfit to live.

Pastor Fitz, who are we to judge this kind of stuff. Camel jockeys back in Joshua's time would slit a throat of a person caught eating a lobster.

"Unfit to live".

Your source of information is quoting the Hebrew bible so we can forgive him for that. But you?

Draw a poster, pastor Fitz, of Jesus in a combat helmet, holding a cross like rifle and saying: come follow me. pick up your cross and let's kill.

And I think this is because you have been reading the Hebrew bible way too much.

Are you teaching kids this crap?

2. Their punishment had not been rendered impetuously. Jehovah had been patient with them for centuries; finally, however, their cup of iniquity ran over (Gen. 15:16), and the time for judgment came.

Pastor Fitz, where do you get this poop? Who are we to judge? Don't give me this simplistic stuff about tossing babies into fires as sacrifice because that was what the Jews had been doing for centuries. Okay, not babies, but all the lambs slaughtered. Billy Crystal used the baby image because he thought that maybe people like you would fall for it.

3. This type of destruction was implemented on a rather limited basis—principally, upon the tribes within Palestine. This was in view of the fact that God chose Canaan as the place where the Hebrew nation was to be cultivated. And this, of course, related to the coming of the Messiah, the Savior of the world.

Pastor Fizt, if you believe any of the above, you should be relieved of duties.It is stupid fundamentalis, Zionist related crap.

I quote what you sent me:
"It was an example of moral surgery for the ultimate benefit of all mankind."

Those are almost the exact words of the terrorists 9-11-01.

My shame for you is not that you believe in the Hebrew bible, but that you probably teach this crap to your students.

Shame on you.

Get with Jesus, for Christ's sake.

Anonymous said...

I think it's because your from Missouri.

You read something written 4,000 years ago that you have been told is the inerrant word of God, and you believe it.

You really don't believe in Jesus and what he told us 2,000 years ago, you believe the stuff written 4,000 years ago by pagan Jewish idol worshipers.

Well, that is your problem.

I have turned myself over to Jesus and I am born again. Truly born again.

Anonymous said...

A woman was about to be stoned for adultery. This is in the New Testament, by the way, and not the Hebrew bible just so you know.

Christ, my Lord and Savior, stepped in and said those of you who are without sin cast the first stone.

Now maybe for you this has legalistic meaning, but for a good Christian it means do not judge others.

I will give you just one example. Christ never said a word about homos. Nothing. He cavorted with prostitutes who oiled His hair and washed his feet with their hair. He said stuff like: whatever you do to the least of us, you do unto me.

And you would have them killed. I mean, you would have a "deceitful" people put to the sword. Shame on you.

Can't you see how your values--not Christian values, but your values--are polluting what you teach?

Where did you pick up this crappy interpretation of Christianity. Are you an Ernest Angley, Falwell, Limbaugh, Robertson,Swaggart kind of preacher? Oh God.

My Lord and God warned us of false prophets, wolves in sheep clothing who would try to infiltrate His church. Oh God.

You, Pastor Fitz, I think, would have that adulterous woman and anyone else whose Christianity differs from yours vilified, stoned, throats cut like Joshua would advise.

The only reason I say something as harsh as what I just said is because you took spiritual, personal meaning from the crap in Joshua.

You have to remember how this bomb of a blog started: with you using a terrible, rotten, idol worshipping piece of Joshua trash as a spiritual message. A spiritual message!

Shame on you!

Anonymous said...

When you say, Pastor Fitz, that "God ordered" the death of every man, woman, child, pet and livestock of that conquered nation, the phrase that really bothers me is "god ordered."
And when the Jews didn't kill everything, god was pissed.

The phrase "god ordered" is in the Hebrew bible. That's how Jewish people think. They actually think Moses existed and they have a right to Jerusaleum. Billy Crystal writing at its best.

Now actually, how did "god order" the mass murder? We know God did not send them an email or a cellphone call, so how actually did God order the destruction of these people?

Some guy or guys did not like those conquered people and thought about killing them all, but then, didn't and you say god was not happy about this. Politics.

What kind of god are you talking about? Certainly it was not our Jesus.

Honestly, are you a Christian?

Anonymous said...

"It was an example of moral surgery for the ultimate benefit of all mankind."

You quoted some deranged
Christian with the above.

Pastor Fitz, those were exactly the words the "martrys" used when they drove their airplanes into the Twin Towers.

Oh my God.

Get with Jesus, for Christ's sake!

Anonymous said...

The bad thing about you Mr. Fitzgerals is you pick and choose from the Bible.

Instead of listening to Jesus, you go back and pick up stuff from the other book to make your political opinions seem true.

You tke your personal values and put them into the bible and that's not right.

People are saying tht the bible says make a lot of money. that's not in the bible.

And you wnt to kill those who don't believe what you do.

That's not Jesus.

Anonymous said...

Where are these worms crawling out of the woodwork from?

Pastor Mike: I want to kill for Jesus. I want them liberals and left-wing churches outofhere.

Let me know what you think.

Kill, kill, kill every man, woman. child, pet and livestock for Jesus!

Joshua! Joshua!

Anonymous said...

"It was an example of moral surgery for the ultimate benefit of all mankind."

You actually quote this kind of slime.

Do you even have the vaguest idea what that above statment, which you quoted, means?

[We had to fly two airplanes into the infidels big buildings because it was a moral surgery for the ultimate benefit of mankind, as we determined what that benefit was. God ordered us to do it.]

Pastor Mike, you are a terrorist at heart. I hate to say this, but you are.

Where in the name of God did you get your "moral surgery" concept?

And if you said the bible told you so, I will say again and again: what bible? The New Testament or the Hebrew bible?

Are you talking about the real New Testament or the one interpreted by Ted Haggard? Do you believe in Jesus or Swaggart? Do you believe in the new Christian concept of being rich as a proof that God loves you or what Christ said: sell all that you have, give the money to the poor and come follow me.

Surely the above spiritual concept is way over your head. Pray harder and try to understand it. It may come to you after a time.

And I will also say: have you read the words of our Lord, Jesus Christ?

[You misquoted Matthew, by the way. You pulled it out of context, picked and chose your phrases, to make your point.]

[I have an idea for you, Pastor. Bring Jesus into your life. Listen to Him. Get reborn. It will make a big difference.]

What really scares me is that you are a leader of young people. Oh my God. And I don't think you have the vaguest notion of what Jesus was telling us.

Teach them in the use of a .12 gauge shotgun while you are at it.

Stop being a straw man and get with Jesus.

Teach love, forgiveness, loving everyone as Jesus did and stop teaching killing those "God ordered"

God, my Lord and my God Jesus taught nothing like the poop you are teaching.

Anonymous said...

Pastor Mike: read your 4 gospels and learn from them. This is something that is obviously lacking in your background.

Anonymous said...

"It was an example of moral surgery for the ultimate benefit of all mankind."

I laugh so hard at you supposed Christians.

I am new to this blog and can't believe the stuff you get into.

Obviously "Pastor Fiss" doesn't know jack about Jesus. He lives in a Walt Disney Chritianity and if you asked him who the 12 Apostles were he would say: Peter, John, Matthew, Mark, Goofy and Donald.

Plus his "Christianity" is seasoned with Zionist Jewish crap.

Whoever you were, the person who wrote the above blog or two, you are right in that he should teach his kids how to use a shotgun to kill like Joshua says.

What the the big picture is, is this. He equates his Missouri values with the values of God. "God ordered" the killing of a conquered people. Yep. And how did "god" do that? By a guy riding a camel who didn't like what he, personally, was seeing.

In Knoxville, "God ordered" the killing of liberals. They were deceitful people who practiced sodomy.

"God ordered" the flying of planes into the buildings of New York because they too were deceitful people.

Pastor Fiss has not read, or at least understood, anything about Jesus. How sad. He gets his spiritual buzz from the idol worshipping Joshua.

This is what American "Christianity" has come to.

My Lord, Jesus, weeps.

Fitz said...

OK, it's time to put an end to the nonsense. I am moving on from this blog post. It is a colossal waste of my time. It has degenerated into word-twisting, name-calling, putting words in my mouth, condescension, and a questioning of my relationship with Jesus. It's one thing if someone has the guts to name themselves and do that; it's yet another when that person is too gutless to sign their name to their comments. So I'm putting an and to this post right now. Further insulting comments will be deleted, not because I feel threatened in any way, but because they are childish.

BTW, I know who you are, and I know your name is not Frank DeWitt...

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